Unity - Working Together

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Druidic Dawn invites its various Celtic and Druid Associations, Groups and Orders members to a discussion which could lead to some form of unity between the various pathways which are current today.

This discussion is not limited to its community membership, but open to the wider internet Celtic and Druid community, who are encouraged to participate.

This exploration can either be held transparently in this public forum or alternatively within the community members accessible Serious Discussion forum. All who may wish to participate in the proposed discussion are governed by the terms and conditions of using this neutral virtual space.

Ideally speaking representative spokespersons are encouraged to participate who are in a position to speak for an Association, Group or Order, if they exisit. Alternatively we invite heads or leaders of Celtic and Druid Associations, Groups or Orders to participate.

Looking forward to a constructive debate!

 

 



csmaccath
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CalonDraig Wrote:

CalonDraig Wrote:
Ceallaigh: you might be interested in the place I work at as a model of how such a project run on pagan/druidic grounds could have wider appeal to other groups: http://www.trigonos.org/ is the place I work in and it is run on Anthraposophical / biodynamic / permaculture lines...

I Say:
Got it! And thanks. I've bookmarked the site and will look it over anon.

Attila Wrote:
As for Britain I would go for wales myself as it is cheaper and its wales.

I Say:
You Welshmen! Such pride. Smile  I'm still in the States here, myself, but we'll see what's what in the next year or so. This is off-topic, but Astrocelt knows my husband and I have been working on a UK/Ireland move for some time. I have a BA in Celtic and a MA in English, Sean has a BS in Computer Science, and we've been looking for a way to make those degrees work to our advantage in the UK. The Home Office has gotten a bit more restrictive about its immigration policies of late, which pointed us in the direction of Ireland for awhile, but I think I might have found a way around those restrictions.

 ::Deep Breath::

So I'm in the process of applying for a PhD by research in the Department of Celtic at the University of Aberdeen. I've been in touch with the chair of the department, who thinks I have good credentials and might even make a go of it as a Celtic scholar in the UK after I graduate, even though I'm 40 now and American. That would put us on a path to UK citizenship.

So we might be there before long, and then perhaps I can contribute to this conversation in person. I could unify around a cup of tea, or a beer, you know what I'm sayin'? Anyway, wish us luck.The community thing has been tied to the Celtic thing for a long time for me, and they've both been tied to the UK and Ireland. I know, I know, find Druidry where you are and all that. Well, I've found it here, and now I want to find it there. Smile

--

Ceallaigh S. MacCath-Moran | www.csmaccath.com



Adam
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Monastery?!

This monastery idea sounds intriguing. I'd be up for it I think. I was once involved in a discussion about it with UU's that wanted a UU monastery of some sort.

I can just imagine it, a druidic sanctuary, akin to the ancient druid groves where aspirants were taught and could develop their learnings. For the modern day it could be a place to study, research and practice Druidry, arts, crafts and various other activities. A community in a forest setting sounds good, to connect with nature.

And then there could be ways to physically help the community; maintaining the buildings, doing gardening, permaculture, developing self-sufficiency perhaps and ecological work and studies. Perhaps there could be spaces for Druid conferences or councils to come together, sharing ideas and resolving various issues.

Oh...hang on, wait a minute... I've just looked up from the computer and realised I live in here... what a coincidence! If it had teeth, it would bite me lol. ;)



Consmiles
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Unity

Hi all,

just to ensure clarity, I post only on my own behalf and do not claim to represent others. I have a busy website with many members and students and I try to show connection to source as a main objective to assist self transformation. As we change ourselves - our world is transformed. We call this Sli an Drui (the Path of the Druid in Irish). But this does not put me on top of any pyramid of power over others. Some form of recogniseable unity for all on the path to the Light might be of great help to seekers but may be difficult to hold together because of the myriads of pathways to the Light - each new seeker makes a new path. This is spirituality as opposed to religion as I see it and it may not fit the idea of 'unity. 



Correllon_DragonSoul
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Monastery idea

Monastery idea is a great one, i am unsure about around the world but i do know many places within the united states that has plenty of land and or those willing to commit such a time to a place. Our order is working on procuring land many acres actually, and of course turning it into a place where many can come and stay and study and have a possible retreat as it were. its a begining and i hope over time it can be one of many places that could hold a monastic idea within.

Correllon DragonSoul



CalonDdraig
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Ceallaigh: you might be

Ceallaigh: you might be interested in the place I work at as a model of how such a project run on pagan/druidic grounds could have wider appeal to other groups: http://www.trigonos.org/ is the place I work in and it is run on Anthraposophical/biodynamic/permaculture lines... but as a model of how you can run a center in an environmentally friendly way (biomass heating, green engrgy, land project, organic food, local economy)... might be useful.

I couldn't commit to spending long periods of time in such a place, but I'd be happy to spend a week or so on a regular basis... like yearly. A verry interesting project!

But still only an idea. It still leaves the sticky idea of unity... would other groups play ball. If they won'y even contribute to a thread on a discussion board, would they commit to bricks and moarter?

~CalonDdraig 



attila
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csmaccath "I like to dream

csmaccath

"I like to dream big, so I don't believe a physical monastery is outside the realm of possibility. It would require the purchase of sufficient land to replace a percentage of the monastery's food, an income, which might be derived from the various skill sets of the Pagan monastics, a charter, and a hardball law firm to defend the rights of the place in perpetuity".

Me too, I would think a monastery with a farm shop would pay its own way, we could have animals wandering around too. The running cost arent as much a problem as the initial setting up, though somethng could be bought that needs doing up, then those priests of sufficient skills could do the work. As for Britain I would go for wales myself as it is cheaper and its wales.

"I'm tired of the Internet. I want community".

Me too [though it has its benefits], there must be many like us.

ColonDdraig

"I was wondering if it might be worth considering people commiting to spending blocks of time in such an institute? I can't see many people wanting to commit their entire lives to such a place"

I would. Smile

 



csmaccath
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CalonDdraig Writes: I can't

CalonDdraig Writes:
I can't see many people wanting to commit their entire lives to such a place: although it is a lovely idea, many people have other commitments that would make full time impossible.

I Say:
Indeed. I agree, and part-time monasticism has a venerable heritage, especially in Buddhism. Also, I wouldn't necessarily want a Pagan monastery to be vast and wealthy, but I would want it to be fiscally solvent in perpetuity. So there would need to be some full-time monastics and a reasonable income, methinks.

In addition, I agree a Pagan monastery would need to be open to the wider Pagan community. Right now, there are too few of us to justify a Druid monastery and a Heathen monastery and an Egyptian monastery. I think such a thing would need to be ecumenical and believe it would be stronger for its open approach.

Blessings,

--

Ceallaigh S. MacCath-Moran | www.csmaccath.com



CalonDdraig
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"I'm tired of the Internet.

"I'm tired of the Internet. I want community."

 

I tend to agree here... the internet is a great tool that can connect us in absense of physical presence, however it isn't a substitute to that.

In regards to the monastic idea, I was wondering if it might be worth considering people commiting to spending blocks of time in such an institute? I can't see many people wanting to commit their entire lives to such a place: although it is a lovely idea, many people have other commitments that would make full time impossible. However, I'm sure people would be prepared to commit either a block of time regularly (say a month a year) or a block of time as a one off (E.G 1 year or more).

Personally, I'm engaged in the healing arts, and a monastic idea follows my personal path of working with the land and spending time contemplating. I try and do this at the moment, and it is helped by the fact that I have a lovely place to do it in, however for many this isn't availible, and I'm sure they would like the opportunity to practice such crafts in a safe, mutually understanding environmet.

If we look at medieval church business, the monastic orders became powerful institutions, owning great amounts of estate and resources. Hopefully this isn't our intent with this idea, but the influence the medieval church brought would be a boon... in getting wider recognition of Druidry in it's current form and in exerting influence in certain events that might prove beneficial to us.

Could this idea be manifested outside the realms of "orders" and "groups" and be more open? We talk of unity here, but could such a project be one way of making it happen?

More interesting thoughts and discussion,

Blessings to all

~CalonDdraig 



csmaccath
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I agree

Attila Writes:
I agree, I am not sure how it would work as a physical place, more a virtual one. Countries like usa, Britain and Ireland could maybe sustain a single monastery each, but it would require some sort of subcription to create funding.

I Write:
I like to dream big, so I don't believe a physical monastery is outside the realm of possibility. It would require the purchase of sufficient land to replace a percentage of the monastery's food, an income, which might be derived from the various skill sets of the Pagan monastics, a charter, and a hardball law firm to defend the rights of the place in perpetuity.

In terms of resident monastics, the monastery might follow the leadership of Buddhist or Christian centers that require applications of its prospective members. In the beginning, the application process would be harder to crack, since prospective monastics would have to bring their own skill sets and incomes. The monastery would also seek support from Pagan organizations and communities at large, which would precipitate all sorts of interesting discussion, I'm sure.

The focus of such a place would have to be monastic and not that of an intentional community. It's a fine line, but an important one the center would dare not cross if it hoped to survive as a spiritual retreat. Finally, the monastery itself would need to engage in regular outreach for the sake of all the things I mentioned in my last post.

I understand the impetus to engage in conversation on the Internet and create virtual spaces. But with every respect, they are two-dimensional substitutes for the real thing, in my opinion. I want to offer my Pagan family my three-dimensional self, my fabulous chocolate torte, a warm blanket, a hot cup of tea and ritual that satisfies. I'm tired of the Internet. I want community.

--

Ceallaigh S. MacCath-Moran | www.csmaccath.com



attila
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a virtual monastery?

build a charitable foundation or Pagan interfaith monastery

I agree, I am not sure how it would work as a physical place, more a virtual one. Countries like usa, Britain and Ireland could maybe sustain a single monastery each, but it would require some sort of subcription to create funding.

To admin, as a small community I can only a major uniting as any way forward that is more than talk. As many as possible major orders would need to become part of a greater circle, as individuals we can only remain a bunch of misfits and the like [which is fun but doesn’t achieve much].

 



Admin
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The impression at the moment

The impression at the moment from this thread might suggest people at present don’t want changes but it’s only the opinions of a very small minority of the contributing community, but most vocal Smile.  Druidic Groups within the community who have a choice to comment number at fifty seven, from one single directory alone, and it’s not all inclusive of the community available here. However one would like to point out, nor does it fully represent all known internet Druid and Celtic related internet web sites. All the same we have to start somewhere.

Concentrating on the wording of the original post it might be summarised as

Avalon Druid Order (USA) – suggests they are willing to explore working together with other Druid related organisations.

Druid School (Ireland) – would prefer to presently wait, allowing things to mature a little more.
However it does not rule out the possibility of working together.

Additionally a lot of valuable individual contributions have been voiced covering themes and issues which are important to their spiritual and practical Druid path which is being walked. All will need to be carefully considered in the very near future.

To facilitate the implications of Avalon Druid Order, what suggestions does your Druid Order have for this website neutral project team? Said in another way, what would assist ADO further to explore working together with other interested parties when they become available? What additional facilities other than what is already available within the public and community spaces would be helpful?

May the discussion and debate continue!

On behalf of the Project Team
Admin



csmaccath
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I've been loosely following

I've been loosely following this thread since I posted awhile back (I've been really busy these last two weeks), so forgive me if this has already been addressed.

Having said that, I'm not fond of ideological unity either, which is what many of you have expressed reservations about. In fact, I would go so far as to say I don't think ideological unity is possible in Pagandom, let alone healthy.

However, I DO think practical unity is not only possible, but necessary. We don't need to adopt the same ideologies in order to decide what qualifications are necessary for clergy or how much our clergy people should be remunerated, and I do think it's time we started talking about that. I also don't think we need to adopt the same ideologies in order to develop stable monastic centers, and that's something we ought to be talking about as well.

But beyond issues directly related to spirituality, it should be remembered that many of us have abandoned the faiths of our childhoods at great cost to our family lives, which creates not only the obvious problem of loneliness among Pagans (we are a minority religion, after all), but creates practical problems as well. Who can a solitary Druid count on to prepare proper burial rites for him when he dies? Who can he count on to faithfully execute his will?

On the other side of life, there are the problems of Pagan children orphaned by catastrophe who then find themselves in the hands of conservative family, Pagan youths breaking free of repressive religions and wondering what to do with themselves next and Pagan adults seeking college funding or help in recovering from floods or house fires. In short, though we are Pagan, we are living in the world, and sadly relying upon religious and charitable structures not of our own making when it comes to the important decisions of our lives.

For myself, I find many Pagan religious and social organizations ideologically problematic, but I would work with every single one of them to build a charitable foundation or Pagan interfaith monastery, as long as it was well-managed and executed under the law of the land. I'm wondering how you all feel about this. Would you contribute to this sort of unity, even if your ideologies were different from those of other Pagans involved, and could this legitimately be called a kind of 'Pagan unity'?

--

Ceallaigh S. MacCath-Moran | www.csmaccath.com



Shakti
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Attila : (...)"You see my

Attila : (...)"You see my point, we all tell each other what to do in varying ways, whatever the method the result is that you are hoping to make change in others! (...)"

Absolutely agree, yes, I see your point.

 Attila :(...) "Unless that is, you want no change at all, in which case your voice for or against is null and void."(...)

Excellent point. That is my impression from this discussion, people really don´t want any change. But that is a characteristic of the Internet. Since you do not see other people´s faces, you don´t have to take them into account at all, and so, writing in here becomes venting your favourite opinion, and not much more.

The message I get from the discussion is : No, can´t do, not possible. Not yet. Let´s simmer a bit more, but each one in his/her own sauce, lol. And of course : my way, or the high way.

 Attila : (...)"We are individuals but we are also a community, and Druidry is very much about both ~ in fact life is."

Yes. As trained (hopefully!) Druids, we need a TRANS-personal point of view. A GROUP view (in the sense of community, not in the sense of being a troup of  sheep with a "Hitler" at the helm!...) Exchanging polite opinions doesn´t make much sense in a world that is rapidly going down the drain. 

Bright Blessings, 

Shakti. 



Correllon_DragonSoul
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Wonderful ideas

Such wonderful ideas and thoughts, turning thinking patterns of a caring nature. I am unsure if anyone within the druidic dawn itself knows of the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions? It is being held this year in Australia, in where i will be attending and be a representative of the druid faith. If you want to be heard, or to hear others views on world issues and how to work together and simply live together with acceptance, that is a good place to start. it has every walk of life and faith one can imagine that come to listen and learn, to hear and accept one another as fellow follows of some form of spiritual faith or belief. We all tend to pick on words or should i say on semantics of words or meanings..etc. When in the end we would just like to enjoy each other and realize like any other belief in the world, when you unify it you often have "in house" arguments and issues. Each of us has our own ideas and wondrous structures on how to perform and or work with that ever popular force of the universe. I have to agree with my fellow follows of the Druidic path in Ireland and around the world, perhaps isn’t the time for this massive unity, perhaps we are indeed in need to stew a bit longer and simmer just a wee bit. Being from Ireland and having traveled the world and now residing in the united states, i find so many wonderful yet differing ideas on how to turn the same crank to work the machine. If you can afford it in this economy and can make it, may i suggest going to the Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions and, seeing from others and voicing yourself. it is something that everyone around the world be seeing. So far for the last few times of its meeting i have sadly been only accompanied by one other Druid group. This council is heard and it is acknowledged by world leaders, if we want to start with any form or fashion of unity and or word to be sent around the world, i say this is the place to start. As i said before this is a world wide council that has gone on for YEARS, so this isn’t something new or unknown. I do wish all of you the best and hope to see you there this year; i am leaving you with the site so you may of course as druids, judge for yourself.

http://www.parliamentofreligions.org/index.cfm

Correllon DragonSoul



attila
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osg  Well, I can make

osg 

Well, I can make videos and write books or songs....express myself....

So are you singing songs with no meaning? Do you wish to draw peoples attention to what you see is wrong in the world ~ or any given other thing? If so do you intend change in them, or should their ears be deafened by absolute individualism?

You see my point, we all tell each other what to do in varying ways, whatever the method the result is that you are hoping to make change in others! Unless that is, you want no change at all, in which case your voice for or against is null and void. We are individuals but we are also a community, and Druidry is very much about both ~ in fact life is.

Shakti

It is for me only a matter of how our voices are heard [direct democracy], and may I add that magic works by exactly the same logic. If you are deeply spiritually engaged then how does that engagement work without interaction? Then how does interaction work without swapping ideas and without passing on your thoughts and ideas to others. All forms of spirituality involve a connection and interaction with the spiritual world ~ necessarily so. It is that connection which is telling me to do all I can both logically and intellectually to bring people around to the damage we are doing to the earth, and the lack of communion with our spirits that many people have.

 



Shakti
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Joined: 2008-11-22
Oligarchy vs Democracy

Well, these are two very different forms of organization. If you are an Order, with a Chosen-Chief, and your Order is organized in Grades (like OBOD, for example, which I know best) you would hardly expect a newly-arrived bard to get to the table where the important decisions about the Order are made. Though in THEORY, everyone has a voice about how things are run, of course. (Not really true, I suspect). And then, there´s the matter of the occult oligarchies in the middle of supposed democracies (talking about Druid groups, here).

There always is a hierarchy in any group, whether open or occult. (Or both, lol.)

The OPEN hierarchy, like "s/he is the Chosen-Chief, and that´s it" at least allows for acknowledged responsibility (response-ability), and it allows for some sort of structure, some sort of directionality of intention on part of the group. I´ve been leader of a group for 22 years (been re-elected democratically every year, lol), so I´ve been through all sorts of situations, and I still would vote for a visible hierarchy, because it really allows for more freedom, since the "currents of power"are clear, and members can even get up their hackles and resist! (Barring Hitlers, of course.)In a veiled democracy (=an occult hierarchy, as is mostly the case in groups), this is not possible because you cannot even mention the subject!

I think that Kenneth (above) is right in one thing (well, more than one!), it is not a question of organizing superficial structures, but a question of the depth of one´s spirituality, - with which we get to a new problem, ...who is to judge ?

Meanwhile, we live our Druidry...(hopefully). 

PS.- I do believe in the Internet, how else can we communicate, living in so many different parts of the world.



Shakti
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Joined: 2008-11-22
Wow!

Way to go, Kenneth. Plus, you are so right about the fact that when you are deeply, spiritually, engaged in a Path, you don´t get much time (or energy) to discuss whether it´s the right one, or if you "should" (the blasted "shoulds") work with other paths.

A salute to you, though we may be on very different journeys, doesn´t seem important, your contribution here caught my breath. :-D

 

Blessings Most Bright,

Shakti.



Ottawa Seed Group
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>How can you speak for you

>How can you speak for you ~ I mean in a way that goes beyond yourself?

 

Well, I can make videos and write books or songs....express myself....if I give up my voice to a "Chosen Chief" or some sort of "Druid Council", how does that help me express myself?  If I *voted* to give someone the power to speak for me, that would be a different story, but from my experience with Druidry, it does not seem to sit well with democracy....seems more comfortable with oligarchy.



attila
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How can you speak for you!

How could a Chosen Chief speak for me

How can you speak for you ~ I mean in a way that goes beyond yourself?

If you only speak for you, then you cannot expect that to have an effect on other people, unless you take away the same freedom you give yourself. Hence everything you believe in cannot have an effect.

Life is about everyone effecting everyone around them, we are products of our environment, we are not solitary entities!



Ottawa Seed Group
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Joined: 2007-09-30
I guess my questions would

I guess my questions would be:

Would this group/conference be discussing druidic issues, or "the world at large" issues? (It might be interesting to discuss druidic theological and philosophical questions between groups...but as has been said elsewhere, there are already large and well established lobby groups to push for change in environmental and political areas that Druids could join..if druid groups tried to get directly involved in such things, I think it would be ineffective and probably alienate a lot of people.)

Who would be invited? There are a handful of actual real-life Druid groups with real-life members...ADF, OBOD, AODA, and a few others. There are dozens and dozens of internet only "orders" with a geocities webpage and one Arch Druid as a member...who get's a seat at the virtual table? 

What would the ultimate goal be? Understanding between the major druid groups? Raising the profile of Druidry in a positive way?(I would support that)  World peace? Combat climate change? I would shrug that off as pie-in-the sky dreaming.

Who would speak for me? I belong to an Order with a "Chosen Chief", no sort of democratic structure (or any structure) to speak of. I imagine the Order I belong to has become large and succesful precisely because they have avoided making statements on behalf of their membership or making representations that members can agree or disagree with.(and no mechanism in place to do so.)  How could a Chosen Chief speak for me?

 

 



Fae
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Just to clarify

In no way am I suggesting that druids have been treated (at least in this last century) the way our aboriginal peoples. What I was suggesting is that we can use what they did, as a model. A representative from each order to sit around a table of sorts to discussion issues that affect all. Perhaps through discussion find a solution.

Peace and blessings!

--

Druidic Dawn Knowledge Base Moderator
All things are filled with knowledge
http://celticsageholistictherapy.com



Admin
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"What "hook" does Druidic

"What "hook" does Druidic Dawn have that these do not?"

The project team has pointed out it aims in its "Mission" which can be found there. Complimentary associated information is available within the "About" page.
In additional infomation relating to its mission is found under "My Pathway sub menu  "Release Missions," within the community neutral virtual space. 

"What is/are our "specialist aim/s" here in this thread?"

This is made clear in the initial post to this thread, in accordance to an aspect of its Mission statement where.....

"Druidic Dawn invites its various Celtic and Druid Associations, Groups
and Orders members to a discussion which could lead to some form of
unity between the various pathways which are current today."

This exploration can either be held transparently in this public forum
or alternatively within the community members accessible Serious
Discussion forum. All who may wish to participate in the proposed
discussion are governed by the terms and conditions
of using this neutral virtual space.

Ideally speaking representative spokespersons are encouraged to
participate who are in a position to speak for an Association, Group or
Order, if they exisit. Alternatively we invite heads or leaders of
Celtic and Druid Associations, Groups or Orders to participate.

Looking forward to a constructive debate"

("unity" might be read as Agreement; Accord; Friendship, Harmony Peace, Unison; Union; Concord and Unanimity.)

At present within the community directory you'll find there are presently over twenty six various types of Druid Associations, Groups and Orders who are walking their pathways. At the moment there has been two reponses from that community directory. Whereas in another there are twelve varying types of Druid Education available, one at the moment has responded to this thread.

Every community member is aware this thread exsists, everyone has an opportunity to voice their opinons and views if they so wish.

On behalf of the Project Team

Admin



kproefrock
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Unity in Druidry

Hello Astrocelt and All ;-)Druidry is my spiritual path. As a spiritual path it provides me with the necessary tools and context to deepen my relationship with the land that I live, the spiritual realm that is all around me, and the people that I interact with—all of which is a deeply personal experience. I work many hours every week as a Naturopathic Physician, I have five children, we live on five acres with a fruit orchard and large garden. I hike, wildcraft, teach my children the ways that I have learned that bring me fulfillment and contentment and I teach Naturopathic Medicine/medical herbalism at conferences around the US. I am also a member of The Order of WhiteOak, currently the president of that organization's Board, and maintain memberships with OBOD and AODA. Who has time for intellectual discussions on Druid Unity? ;-) That was just a joke, not to make light of the conversation, but, to raise the point that the more I engage with the physical world around me, the less time I am compelled to spend on this little box with a keyboard.  As Astrocelt asked earlier: “Why shouldn't there be some form of unity and working together?How many of us often pledges "Peace throughout the land." My answer is time....I only have so much of it, I have been able to cultivate a set of spiritual techniques that currently work for me. I would love the kind of dialog that allows me to share what I do with individuals who have also cultivated specific spiritual techniques. I find that few people are interested in that aspect of Druidry. People want to argue about why they are a Druid, but they seldom put forth anything of spiritual depth. Others want to define what they do as Reconstructionism, but they seldom put forth anything of spiritual depth. When I make my early morning rounds of the various forums that I visit, I find very little of actual substance being presented anywhere. Once the romantic appeal of being a “druid” wears off, I believe that most people begin to mature and gravitate towards other spiritual pursuits that feed them more directly—for me, that was Celtic Reconstructionism, for others that could be returning to the church of their youth, or another faith altogether. Ultra-inclusiveness like that found in the larger Orders is great for building a membership base, and seems like a way to create a profitable business, but, my experience is that there is inherent superficiality in that level of inclusiveness...I would love to be proven wrong on this point, but, 15 years at OBOD with inane discussions about Celtic Reiki, Druid Buddhists and Druid Christians has left its taint on me ;-) --please note the smily face way of saying, sorry if you fall into one of those categories, I mean no personal offense, but, also begs the question: if you are emphasizing the breadth of your beliefs, how deeply can you take any of them? Why not unity, Astrocelt? Because I simply don't think that what I do and what I find important about what makes me a Druid is compatible with most of what I see being done in the Druid community. The people who are the most outspoken on the various forums are the ones who spend the most time on them. Hmmm, that might mean that they are spending the least time engaged with Nature, and I immediately begin to suspect their motives.I am a physician within my community, to have an open unity with the more marginalized and “flaming” members of the Pagan community becomes a professional liability. Showing up at the local park dressed in robes and a staff is not likely to add to my credibility as a medical professional. What I do professionally is a part of my spiritual path, so, I don't do that. I do spend several hours every week engaged with the land that I live on, making offerings, exploring canyons and hillsides, engaged in contemplative practices, and cultivating an ever deeper relationship with the High Ones, my Ancestors and the Spirits of Nature that are ever-present. I work regionally to protect the wilderness that I find essential to my way of life. I make every attempt to engage the individuals that I cater to in my professional life in the deepest manner possible, encouraging them to find solace in the physical world around them and to begin cultivating spiritually fulfilling practices in order to find their sense of purpose and rekindle that sense of awe. I don't have the time or motivation to discuss why “Celtic” anything is not going to be an appropriate descriptor, nor do I have the desire to create gigantic political alliances with people that are still trying to define themselves, and therefore, have no continuity and a severe lack of political credibility. As the community matures, as the membership engages in activities that will deepen their awareness and empower them in their beliefs, I believe a true Unity will emerge from like-minded people at similar stages of spiritual development. I believe that it is inevitable, but, I don't think that it is now. We are still playing the personality game, and the relative unity that we have produced within Druidry, is, in my opinion, a combined cults of personality. Gatherings like the Lughnasadh one in California create a draw by bringing in the big personalities. Will it be a gathering that allows for a true deepening of Druidry? I seriously doubt it. The Toronto gathering sponsored by Druidic Dawn seems far more likely to create that kind of deepening. Rather than trying to artificially link people together in 'Unity,' I think we need to provide better, more in depth, training for the individuals within the community and then allow our respective first hand experiences create a natural resonance with one another that then allows a natural 'unity' to evolve. Just my two cents ;-) Thank you for providing the kind of neutral space where discussions of this sort can play out ;-) Have a wonderful day!Green Forests and Blue Skies!Kenneth



Adam
Adam's picture
Posts: 54
Joined: 2008-11-22
"The hook may not be a

"The hook may not be a single goal for similar reasons as not having a leader"

Yes, you're right. What I was thinking is that there are already other "hooks" or purposes out there such as CoBDO (which was set up for uniting British Druids but it seems to me has more activist aims now towards sacred sites) and Druid Network (for, erm, networking). What "hook" does Druidic Dawn have that these do not?

"Unity-Working together" has already been done and tried by others, usually with specialist aims. I think (several) specialist aims are the only things that will work in the Druid community, and that (going back to the fishing metaphor) they don't have to be, and even shouldn't be attached to the same rod and line. That is, that specialist aims should work independently from others, yet still with the possibility for overlap for some Orders between them.

What is/are our "specialist aim/s" here in this thread?



Fae
Fae's picture
Posts: 171
Joined: 2007-11-12
Some additional thoughts

 

Let me say that we in Canada this past Wednesday celebrated 142 years of being a country. In that short period of time much has happened. We the immigrants have pushed the aboriginal peoples of this land into reserves most often into areas in the far north where they can not sustain themselves. I will share a bit of their journey with you. They once roamed this magnificent land, hunting and gathering..always treating the land and animals with the deepest respect. Then found themselves herded into areas that were not native to them. The immigrants brought sickness and disease, and the aboriginal peoples numbers began a large decline (I will not go into the atrocities done to them) After 100 years they decided to band together forming the Six Nations, this was for one purpose to bring the plight of their tribes to our National Government. It didn’t mean that the individual tribes lost their identity but it meant that as a large group they gained recognition around the issues that were affecting them in a most detrimental way. (This is my vision for the druidic tribes around the world).

 

If you take the time to really look around this magnificent country of mine, you will see that big industry through pollution, strip mining, clear cutting has destroyed with wanton glee and for the sake of money a large portion of this country. You will also see large dumpsites filled with garbage that will never bio-degrade. Today, due in large part to a small minority of people we have some rules and regulations governing industry, but what the majority of these companies have done, is pulled up stakes and moved to countries that are pristine and started their cycle once more. There is a lovely book written by David Suzuki called the Sacred Balance, a great read.

 

There is a piece of work, that has very special meaning for me: it is the words of our Mother, the earth:

 

As you walk upon my back, tread gently,

As you eat of my fruits, share them with others

As you breathe of my air, speak softly my name,

And I will nurture you.

As you drink of my waters, feel me inside you,

As you gaze upon my beauty, be part of me,

As you listen to the wind in my trees, hear me calling,

And I will comfort you.

As you rest against my body, I will support you,

As you walk my many paths, I will be with you,

As you are my child, I will raise you,

And I will bless you through all the days of your lives.

 

If this is true, what are we prepared to do to insure that she is able to continue to do this for us.  Peace to you all!

 

 

--

Druidic Dawn Knowledge Base Moderator
All things are filled with knowledge
http://celticsageholistictherapy.com



Shakti
Posts: 50
Joined: 2008-11-22
attila

In between some sort of organizing authority, or "authority" (in brackets, if you prefer) and HITLER, hahaha, there is a VAST margin of possibilities!

Aren´t you being a bit, the slightest bit mind you, and I don´t mean to insult you in the least way, ...errr...paranoid ?And wouldn´t that be the cause of some of the difficulties to get to work together ????

 

BB

Shakti.

 

PS.- After their training (I´m OBOD), aren´t Druids supposed to trust each other, or don´t you want to talk about that ???



attila
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Posts: 154
Joined: 2007-11-25
Btm, hi The idea was right

Btm, hi

The idea was right with engaded druidism, it just didn’t have enough members and contributors. [imagine if all orders were joined in such a venture!] 

Perhaps a slight issue was with accessibility, you need a very simple front page with say 5-7 sub-forums on it [not to self concerned i.e. druids this, druids that], then add to it as needs be in layers. Equally the library should have been joined directly to it. Also it had a very irish feel which is fine, but exclusive. One needs to use English as much as possible and have a more general theme [is druidry the culture or celtic? ~ were there not celts with no druids, and are we not druids with no celts?]. Equally it would need to join up with orders e.g. nod and anyone else who cares to join. Then give it a simple title e.g. the order of druids/the druids/ or maybe the druids centre, something that is simple to remember.

I do, however, remain skeptical that this can happen without the focus of a real life community

Well we are all here in the real world though spread around the world, so the net is the only real way of doing it. We can all do our own little bit go on non druids forums, try not to be overly cultish/religious etc just as we do now. As you say this doesn’t amount to anything on the grander scale, and at a time when we need a voice more than ever.

Perhaps it can only be done if all the larger orders partake in a harmony of some kind. With one voice each individual can speak as that voice [if we think outside the box a bit], and speak on behalf of a community which over time will become known.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, …and there was not loads of rome’s [well later you had east and western empire].

First join together as much as possible into one body, then work out what we can do with that. If education is all we can do then over time it is still a very powerful weapon. Indeed, I would think that a higher philosophy in the detached sense.

Jesus and the Buddha changed the world simply by informing it, so we need to think of way to do that as a body, whilst remembering that a few years is nothing.

Perhaps even….

‘don’t seek change for yourselves, seek it for your grandchildren’

Somehow I think fate will have a say in that, as I have debated elsewhere, we are in liminal times, events are increasing, drawing closer, time faster, minds confused.

Are we to be part of the chaos or be more vigilant and be part of the harmony. We can all do our bit but if we really want change those bits need to add up together.

The trick is to have an overall Druidry without dogma and hierarchy, if we did have a ‘leader’ who of us would care what they say anyway? They got no hold over us and if they did it would just cause splintering as most of us would move away from that.

No one said it would be easy.

We have to throw away all our previous concepts and find anew from the awens within us.

__________________________________-

Adam

The hook may not be a single goal for similar reasons as not having a leader [as we would normally think of one]. I am sure we all want to save the planet and care about it more, and we certainly have very little effect as individuals.

The first thing is to find a way of uniting as one without hitler in control.

Somehow I feel things will start happening then, the awen rides with wind, if you head off in a given direction then things start happening accordingly. Ideas flow relative to that, and if we hit the mark so will Druidry itself.

The lack of purpose may be what limits us most.



Adam
Adam's picture
Posts: 54
Joined: 2008-11-22
Chaordic Design Process 1.

Chaordic Design Process

1. Purpose- A clear, commonly understood statement of that which identifies and binds the community together as worthy of pursuit.

So far nothing more than a loose "Unity-Working together". What are we here for other than interesting dialogue and debate?

 2. Principles- Clear, commonly understood statements of how Participants will conduct themselves in pursuit of Purpose.

Which we can only develop after really focussing on our Purpose.

3. Participants- The members of the community necessary to its effective initiation and continuance -- all relevant and affected parties.

Leaders and representatives of various Celtic and Druidic groups and organisations, whereever they are... (I know some are here already, but there could be more) I think there might be a nice place in Spain, didn't Shakti mention it? where some... I don't know... Conference could be held...?

4. Organisational Concept- Characterization of participant relationships that all can trust to be just, equitable and effective in achieving the Purpose in accord with the Principle.

Which can only really happen AFTER Purpose is stated, and most certainly after the appropriate Participants, erm... well... turn up basically.

5. Constitution- Codification of the Concept specifying rights, obligations and relationships of all Participants, giving rise to the organization as a legal entity.

A looooong way off yet.

6. Practices- Activities, products and services through which the Participants pursue the organization's Purpose and create value.

And after jumping all those hurdles and sorting out details we can then DO something. But back to stage one, and if we stick with it long enough we could actually get here.

I know I'm being a but cheaky but I do seriously think this is a good model to organise any "Unity-Working Together" efforts.



Adam
Adam's picture
Posts: 54
Joined: 2008-11-22
I get the feeling that we

I get the feeling that we are fishing with a rod and line but no hook. What's our hook? What direction is this going in?

It's fine being "politically neutral," and being a "blank arena" for people to do something in, but without an intent or mission no one that leads or otherwise facilitates a Druidr Order, organisation etc is really going to bother.

 Someone needs to say "We are trying to draw together Druidic and Celtic groups in a "Unity- Working together" project with the purpose of..."

Not "We are trying to draw together Druidic and Celtic groups in a "Unity- Working together" project because perhaps, maybe, something could come out of it."

 How the different groups will be organised under "one banner" (or something like it) is up to them, although we can certainly experiment with ideas. And for that can I recomment this website as a possible basis for developing models; http://www.chaordic.org/

 However, we still have no hook, although some have been mentioned; harmony, representation, practical service, a forum for exchanging ideas etc.

 What's our hook, and bait? What's going to catch the group leaders and representatives attention to end up working together. What do they need that current alliances and networks aren't offering?



Between the Mists
Posts: 23
Joined: 2007-10-30
It might be worth pointing

It might be worth pointing out that some of the sort of "speaking out" and taking part in social/environmental issues was the reason that in 2006 James Liter and myself formed the now-defunct Foundation for Engaged Druidism.  We took as an inspiration the tradition of Engaged Buddhism founded by Thich Nhat Hanh.  Ultimately the organization doesn't exist anymore for many reasons.  The largest reason I would say is that the internet simply wasn't an environment conducive to it.  There was also a marked lack of interest in engaging in such a way though.  It also never really moved beyond individual contemplative practice and inner transformation toward social transformation, and arguably we didn't really do enough to encourage either.  Engaged and the internet just don't quite go well together as one tends to be the antithesis of the other (whether or not that is intrinsic is another issue).  I still think the idea is an important one though to be frank I think the issues of sacred sites, while important, are peanuts compared to some of the larger issues of our times such as the ecological crisis and the destablization of the climate.  I'm finishing up a book right now, due out in September, that although doesn't use the term "engaged druidism" is very much an articulation of that and a call to transform the world by first transforming consciousness (as policy changes can only come as a result of cultural changes which is inherently a matter of consciousness).  I'd be more than happy to get involved with a group effort along those lines and would love the opportunity to participate in some more practical work.  I do, however, remain skeptical that this can happen without the focus of a real life community.

What I think is entirely unnecessary--and not only that, but a bad idea--is the attempt to create one "Druid Voice" by centralizing us in some way.  Engaged Buddhism does a lot of great work but it isn't really one united thing.  There are a lot of different Engaged Buddhist organizations and individuals who are doing great work both as activists and as educators and artists.  I think the attempt to centralize in some way would simply get in the way.  We can't even get past it in this conversation to decide how actually to take action!  Trying to organize druidry as a whole into one harmonic thing would waste everyone's time trying to agree on group politics rather than actually confronting issues.  What I think we need is actually an entirely neutral organization without leaders in the traditional sense (a friend who did a course in authentic leadership once shared with me a thing he learned--the most authentic leader should not be recognizable as a leader; it takes subtlety) that can serve as a touchstone for druid activists.  A group that tracks issues and makes suggestions for things that can be done on a variety of levels--from more "traditional" forms of social activism to educating people, providing spiritual support where appropriate, etc.  It could also serve activists by helping them in a variety of ways (providing experiential practices, counseling, etc) to keep them connected with the issues emotionally and to help them work through the despair and depression that can set in at times (a la Joanna Macy's "work that reconnects").

This I think would be much more helpful and productive than trying to unite all druids under a single banner just for the sake of the media and government being aware that "the druids aren't happy about this decision."  Raise your hand if you think any government cares what the druids think.  We can work as druids on these issues but I think we have to present ourselves as human beings as that, ultimately, is what we have in common with the people whose policies we are trying to change.  Afterall, irrespective of your position on the issue, does anyone here care that the fundamentalist Christians think abortion should be outlawed?  The media certainly tends to lump them all into one voice though.  I don't listen to the pope just because he speaks for all Catholics, so who is going to listen to Drew MacDruidson just because he speaks for all druids?

Anyway, I'm all for organizing in some way to create a framework for engaging with social issues as a part of one's druid spirituality.  I've yet to hear anything remotely convincing for why we should try to organize ourselves in any way as a singular voice.  Really, one person can make a difference on a local level and local changes can turn into much larger transformations.  I think trying to unite all druids in some way is a bit like herding cats.  Sure, you could try.  But if the aim is to actually make an impact in the world and work toward positive change and social transformation then I think herding cats is a waste of time.