The Gods Project

cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30

Astrocelt and I were in the chatroom today and talk turned to how the first thing people new to the path wanted to learn about were the gods.  We discussed how we here at the Druidic Dawn could help and we thought of starting this thread.  We will read through the myths noting the names of the gods, their stories, their relationships to each other, their attributes, the symbols or weapons associated with them and so on.  In this way we can later have a database of gods permanently added to the site (we hope).

We are starting with the Irish gods for now but later we hope to do the same for the Welsh gods.  The first myths we will look at are the ones in the Book of the Taking of Ireland (Book of Invasions).  For those of you who don't have it here is where you can find it online:

Book of the Taking of Ireland

So let us begin!

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Interesting essay's you have presented to the community here Cuardi.

If you have not seen it yet, Brian Walsh from New Tara at the Celtic Gathering in Canada 2009 did an excellent presentation on Lugh within the title of "Lughasadh: The Feast of First Fruit" the media or video presentation is available to Druidic Dawn Members on site can be found as the last one on the play list.

I've gathered all the God/desses geneaology to gether and put them on into one image which might be of interested. The other things which have become noticible relates to the way the Goddess are area specific, so subsequently have put together a map of Ireland to illustrate this. However there are some question marks there of areas I'm unsure of at present.

Another interestng point relates to  Nuadu geneaology includes both the Goddess of Boann and Macha. Its quite possible this duplication relates to him being held as a form of a God by both Ulster and Leinster jointly, just some passing thoughts.

Map

DD Genaeology Mastercopy

Enjoy!

 



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Ok guys here is my essay on Lúgh, it took a while.  

 

Astrocelt.  Great work!  I'm loving this.  I think I'll go add my essays to the site pages too.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Sanatz 60

Ogma s. Elada

Macha daughter of Ernmas

Sanatz 61

Dagda, son of Elada

astrocelt



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Additional Gods mentioned in Sanatz 59

Tailtiu

Eithne daughter of Balar

astrocelt

 



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Many thanks Kenneth nearly missed them, plus some more research too!

Updated version of  Dian Ceacht

Cheers



kproefrock
kproefrock's picture
Posts: 49
Joined: 2009-03-25
Re: The Gods Project

Just to follow up on this ;-)

An alternate spelling of Octiuriul is Ochttriuil--according to the electronic Dictionary of the Irish Language, Ocht is the number eight in Old Irish. I am not sure about the rest of the name --neither -tiuriul nor -triuil generate a response in the eDIL.

Have a wonderful day!!

Kenneth 



kproefrock
kproefrock's picture
Posts: 49
Joined: 2009-03-25
Re: The Gods Project

Really great work!

I would respectfully add the following offspring to the DianCecht genealogy.

Cethe and Cian are normally associated with another brother Cu.

There is also Octiuriul...from the Second Battle of Maigh Tuired, Elizabeth Gray's translation, Irish Texts Society, p 55, section 123:

"Now this is what used to kindle the warriors who were wounded there so that they were more fiery the next day: Dian Cécht, his two sons Octiuriul and Míach, and his daughter Airmed were chanting spells over the well named Sláine. They would cast their mortally-wounded men into it as they were struck down; and they were alive when they came out. Their mortally-wounded were healed through the power of the incantation made by the four physicians who were around the well."

There is some question as to whether references to Ormiach represent another son of Dian Cecht or another reference to Miach. It may well be that Dian Cecht had eight children and it seems that I remember reading a note by Carey to the effect that Octiuriul may represent, in the name, the number eight...perhaps implying that he was the eighth child? I apologize for so much conjecture on this, I will try to dive into my notes and pull out some better references.

I hope that this is remotely helpful ;-)

Have a wonderful day!

Kenneth 

 

 



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

This is great Astrocelt!  I've been working on something myself, and it has to do with An Morrígan.  It's a sort of survey of her in the myths, and glossaries.  It is not complete by a long shot but it is a start.

Here it is An Morrígan 

 I hope it is a good edition to our database! My next project will be Lugh Lamhfhada (I hope lol).  The geanology on Lugh should be helpful to me so thanks for that.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

I've been queitly woking on the Genealogy for the Sanatz 58 the results are as follows

Nuada

Dian Ceacht

Bres

Plus making some headway on Sanatz 59

Lugh

Astrocelt



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Nice one!

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Just been looking at the geneaology for the following goddess mentioned in your previous post Caudai relating to Badb, Macha and Morrigu. The following tree is perhaps far from complete as it also includes relative stories/historical text and other bits.

jpeg file is 200.00KB click on the image for full size

Astrocelt



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

Many thanks for posting this Cuardai, very interesting and simular to what Kenneth has indicated its quite the work of a scholar.

It certainly has inspired me to approach this form a different angle, which I'm working on inbetween other things. I'll post here as soon as its completed.

Just as a side note: Druidic Dawn does have the facilities where members can up load images striaght to the web site to be included within the forum posts rather than using a third party.

Blessings

Astrocelt



kproefrock
kproefrock's picture
Posts: 49
Joined: 2009-03-25
Re: The Gods Project

Wow! What a marvelous effort, Maya!!

You are truly a Celtic Scholar ;-)

Thank you for sharing this.

Have a wonderful day!

Kenneth 



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Hmmm, maybe if you Click on them they will be more visible.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

So here are the geneology versions as far as I got before getting a little confused lol.

Photobucket

This is Starn's Progeny

Photobucket

This one is of Nemed

Photobucket

Tuatha De Danann Part One

Photobucket

Tuatha De Danann Part 2

Photobucket

Tuatha De Danann Part 3

Photobucket

Tuatha De Danann Part 4

Photobucket

Tuatha De Danann Parts 5-6

Photobucket

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

It would be interesting to see the genealogy version which you are working on, either here in the  public forum or posted within the community only spaces.

I was interested to see the names of those responsible for the first invasion of Ireland reappearing at this point.; together with being honoured and venerated as sovereign Goddesses of the land. This being Banbha, Fodla and Eriu, on the other hand its counter part Cresair who is also given credit at that time does not take on a similar role.

If the Tuatha De Danann is the newcomers bringing elements of agriculture with them, it could suggest they may have inherited previous indigenous deities via integration over time. Indeed an element of this has been argued in a hypothesis which favours a relationship to the early and later Neolithic famers.

Just a few passing thoughts…



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

I'm still reading through the Book of the Taking of Ireland and I just
finished reading Sanzas 55-64.   Lots of gods in this part but not much when it comes to their associations or plains of interest.  Let me point you to a great geneology of the Tuatha De Danann and even this one is a bit confused, I'm made my own but I haven't scanned it yet.  Tuatha De Danann 

This is the one that is mostly correct if you follow the myth.

 

Here is what I got so far on the gods:

Badb and macha: Wealth

Morrigu : Craftiness and source of bitter fighting

Goibniu: Smith

Luicne: Carpentry

Credne: Wright

Dian Cecht: Leech or Doctor

The three sons of Cermat son of Dagda: Mac Cuill: hazel god?  Mac Cecht: Ploughshare god  Mac Griene: Sun is his god?

They all seem to be connected to agriculture and hospitality.  And being married to the land goddesses Fotla, Banba, and Eriu I think this is likely.  Also there seems to be a lot of hostility between the Dagda and Lugh there at the end don't you think?

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Eadha Deora
Eadha Deora's picture
Posts: 193
Joined: 2007-10-02
Re: The Gods Project

Hello Maya,

Always been particularly fascinated with the Fomoire. There is one scholar who argues that their association with the sea is false, that this stems from a later folk etymology. He had some really good things to say, but wish I could find the article for you then. I might be able to.

Likewise, the Britons being driven to the other side of the border doesn't make sense as the Picts, in context of Brythonic history. The Picts were already way up North by Anglo-Saxon times. The only people who were driven by the Saxons over various borders were the Brythons themselves.

Some of my books back in Wales could help us here, because I have one which explains all sorts of cool things about British origin myths (origins in the sense of ancestor origin myths). Prydain is what the Welsh tradition calls the island ancestor. Which is "Britain". I find the connection to Nemed here most interesting though.

I will try to find things out later if I can on this material too.

--

'Just once let what is in your care grow wild enough to see the world through its own eyes.'

http://www.feralpoetry.com

 



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

I'm still reading through the Book of the Taking of Ireland and I just finished reading Sanzas 39-54.  While I have not yet gotten to the Tuatha De Danann, I have some interesting questions on a couple of things.

The Fomoire are called Sea Rovers could that be a reference to the fact that they may have been actual people who were Sea Farers and came to Ireland that way?  Also could the Fomoire be equated with the concept of the OUTSIDERS that Ceisiwr Serith talks about in his book Deep Ancestors about the Proto-Indo-European religion.  The Outsiders are the forces that promotes Chaos.

The children of Nemed fight the Fomoire after being oppressed by them and they are all taken by the sea except for 30 warroirs, could the taking by the sea mean that they were taken to the otherworld?

There is a reference to Britain Mael son of Fergus Red side Son of Nemed who is the ancestor of all the Britons, could this be a reference to the Picts, since it says that they were driven to the otherside of the border by the Saxons.

At the end the very last stanza talks about the progeny of Bethach son of Iarbonel the Soothsayer son of Nemed going to the northern Islands of the World learning druidry and knowledge and prophecy and magic, till they were experts in the arts of pagan cunning.  Could this be were the Tuatha De Danann learned their arts?

Also I've had a grand old time tracing the geneology presented in this part of the Book of Taking of Ireland.  I'll post them here later if you want them.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Elkie
Posts: 112
Joined: 2007-09-23
Re: The Gods Project

Thanks Maya; I wonder what other clues to the ancient druids lie in their names?

Elkie



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Stanzas 26 - 38 talk about the invasions of Cessair and Partholon.  There does not seem to be a mention of any gods here but there is mention of more druids in Partholon's time.

The Druids are Fiss, Eolas, Eochmarc and interestingly enough all three names have meanings associated with knowledge or learning.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Elkie
Posts: 112
Joined: 2007-09-23
Re: The Gods Project

Now this is a project I have not seen done - to list the names of the druids documented in history, and what we know about them. Is anyone else curious about this?

Elkie



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Ok I just finished reading stanzas 1-25 which include the Biblical History and the Gaedhil history.  And while there were no Gods and Goddesses in there, there was one person that should be mentioned I think.  

The first druid to be mentioned in the Book of the Taking of Ireland is called Caicher the Druid.  He was a Chieftain-Druid and a seer who prophecied that the Gaedhils will reach Ireland 300 years fro m his time.  The Gaedhils are his sons and the sons of the other two cheiftains with him.  

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



cuardai
cuardai's picture
Posts: 94
Joined: 2007-11-30
Re: The Gods Project

Wow, I never got any notification that this topic was active lol.  The Tain was next on my list.  Right now I'm reading the Book of the Takings of reland, and hopefully by today I'll have something to add.

--

Maya
Tosach Eolais Imchomharc.
The beginning of knowledge is inquiry.
Celtic Scholar



Eadha Deora
Eadha Deora's picture
Posts: 193
Joined: 2007-10-02
Re: The Gods Project

I very much like the idea of a database and would be happy to assist in regards to examining Welsh mythology and stories, as this is something I already do. Also if we look at the Tain, I'll have a lot to add about the figures present there. Cooooool!!!

--

'Just once let what is in your care grow wild enough to see the world through its own eyes.'

http://www.feralpoetry.com

 



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: The Gods Project

The Lebor Gabala Erenn - Book of the Invasions of Ireland, needs careful scrutiny.  It might be appreciated that this has generally been accepted as a history of Ireland extensively accepted as such until very recently. It has also been cited as an adaption which has been adjusted by the unknown scribe which put it together in its 11 century form, to illustrate a similar history to that laid out in the Christian bible.  On the other hand it to been argued to contain oral knowledge from the past which predates the Celts and the Druids. Taking these into consideration it might be worth starting within the same framework of the document with the 1st invasion when looking at the “Gods and Goddess” of Ireland.

The 1st invasion of Ireland names the following:-

Banbha (female) leads a company of people to Ireland before the flood
It’s also said that…..
Cresair (female grand daughter of Noah) leads a company of people to Ireland before the flood these consist of three men and fifty women

The only survior of the flood is Fintan mac Bocha, said to have landed on Ireland with Noah Granddaughter, Cresair

Neither Cresair nor Banbha survives the flood in human form.
Cresair transforms into a Salmon, an eagle and a hawk; whereas Banbha receives a veneration status.

Banbha is just one aspect of a triad of females; the other two are Fodla and Eriu.

Are there goddesses mentioned in the 1st invasion of Ireland if so who are they, what are their attributes, how are they venerated, how are they approached?

astrocelt



Renard
Renard's picture
Posts: 34
Joined: 2010-01-15
Re: The Gods Project

I think the key to understanding the gods... is to know that they still exist and are still accessible.  Much can be debated as to what they are... how they came to be... the impact of humans on them over time.... but regardless of how they came to be... they are still within reach and available to those who wish their company....

From that perspective... it is easier to build an opinion about the rest....:>)

Renard

--

Thank you for your time and consideration

Renard

Editor

Aontacht Magazine

 

 



Admin
Admin's picture
Posts: 1327
Joined: 2007-07-07
Re: The Gods Project

Druidic Dawn members may be interested in consulting the members Online Library where a pdf copy is available of Robert Macalister version of Lebor gabála Érenn : The book of the taking of Ireland (Volume 1).

Admin

--

Renard

Guardian of the Druidic Dawn