How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19

druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

As I recall we were more fond of Power, but then that was a pre Iron Age Thing for the most part.

Like in most things Rhyme often replaces lost Reason.  TDK 



Greysleeves
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Joined: 2012-11-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Weren't the ancient druids fond of structured poetry?

 Mind you.  The only decent poem I ever wrote was a freestyle one done after experimenting with a new meditation for connecting with awen.



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?
I tent to write what I see and feel washed up upon the shores of mind's deep cut
Ley
.
That often makes rhyme just a shaking hand on the quill of Awen.
There are quit a few poems at the blog and in each I try to put a few views of the other
side 
of the veils as I seem them through the worm holes of time.
 
Moon
Rising   
TDK 


Greysleeves
Posts: 10
Joined: 2012-11-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

I prefer more structured, lyrical poetry, usually.  As those of us poetically challenged often do.  I liked the ideas this one threw up though.  One of which always makes me smile when I think of it.  What would a post apocalyptic culture that had gotten back on its feet make of us as their ancient past?  The latest vampire and werewolf litrature would be misleading.  Superman leaping buildings in a single bound might just seem a continuation of The Warrior's Salmon leap etc from earlier.

Arthur Weasley summed it up in the Harry Potter movies:

"What, exactly, is the purpose of a rubber duck to muggles, Harry?"

Sometimes research makes me feel just as confused.  Dipping down into racial memory or consulting the spirits-of-the-place, or just doing what works for me makes for the best course.



Heddwen
Heddwen's picture
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Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Fascinating discussion folks



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Perhaps you will enjoy this small poem Greysleeves.

http://soulpearls.blogspot.com/2012/05/well-of-was.html 



Greysleeves
Posts: 10
Joined: 2012-11-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

There are a few reasons given for why people don't think the druids were pre-celtic (despite a lot of sophistry hinting they were when Stonehenge gets mentioned).

The coming of the Celts marked a huge change in customs.  Well, yes, they would.  Because the term is a linguistic one to mark the change....  That the changes were brought in from outsiders there can be no doubt.  Even if not for etymological evidence, we'd know this from DNA studies.  What I can't understand is the lack of interest in the things that merged or continued in new forms.  

People stopped building the large stone henges and other astronomical temples with the coming of the celts.  Because the celts knew more advanced mathematics, and applied them to symbols for calculation too.  But music is still music even though it becomes played on more modern equipment.  A boombox to an iPod nano - the people are still listening to music.  We're still looking at the stars.

I think the word druid is one with a meaning that links to other words that had similar meanings, and persons with similar functions.  The big change for me isn't in the naming of things, but in the practices.  When people needed a priesthood, or an intermediary, instead of connecting themselves.  When being someone that connected directly meant becoming part of a priesthood or at least of an elevated nature so that you could intervene on others behalf.  Joining a priesthood and learning it's secrets made you an elevated person.  Whereas before, you all connected, or there was a person who, being naturally gifted, became the go-to person for spiritual matters.

As modern druids we don't have the same huge organisation the originals had to draw on, so we're filling in the gaps the way earlier people did.  By accessing our inner abilities and gifts.  As such we are connecting with older practices.  Druids of their time must have done the same thing, though, even within their organisation of teaching.  Don't you think?

How you can draw a line between druid and earlier practices eludes me, both for then, and now. 

It would be like trying to draw a line between the end of druidry and the start of catholicism while celebrating christmas, which has both, merged.



Greysleeves
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Joined: 2012-11-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Thanks, still wandering around but I'll work out where everything is no doubt.



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

So nice to hear another voice around our small virtual campfire Greysleeves !!!

TDK 



Greysleeves
Posts: 10
Joined: 2012-11-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Hello, I'm new, so I hope I'm not stepping on any toes by voicing a personal opinion. 

I find it hard to accept that because a neolithic person did something that a druid also did, later, it means the neolithic person was also a druid.  I simply see a continuity of practice preserved.  Preservation of earlier lore being a modern druid's bailiwick, too... 

On the other hand, I once heard a storyteller say the Cult of the Nine Maidens was incorporated into what we now call the Ovate class, so that would be a direct link to neolithic times. 



Astrocelt
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Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Astrocelt any special thoughts on the "Cave-Bear" and the Neanderthals


In the past when Neanderthals hominids walked the earth alongside Homo sapiens  during the Middle Palaeolithic (300,000–30,000); it has been suggested a Bear Cult or a Bear religion existed.  This is supported from the Neanderthals burial excavations which also included the remains of Bears.  Of course, there are scientific arguments for, and against, as to whether a Bear Cult or a Bear religion existed at the time.


Homo sapiens developed a Bear Cult at some time specifically related within the circumpolar regions. Additionally bears also play an important part in Celtic belief. 



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Astrocelt any special thoughts on the "Cave-Bear" and the Neanderthals ? his skull shape gives me wonderful ideas that perhaps there is more here then just a big (normal smart) bear. TDK



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Yes
Astrocelt.

It
would be nice to have to have others join us by the fires of past
lives, today's ideas and science.

A
chance to get to hear what visions they see its smoke rising to wake
the old Gods.

For
in this tunnel of life we look both to the past and the future.

For
me the future looks dark and filled death that pales even the times
of the Blue Night.

Perhaps
others see a true and better vision for mankind.

Still
words of wonder that fill the books and news presses, and sweet
sirens fill the air ways with promises of a great and genetically
modified future for all.

Do
not match the facts As Above or So Below that many of us old Druids
sense or the smell of evil blowing in the winds.

Well
enough of such dark scrying, a
t times when I post to Druidic
Dawn I feel like an ancient actor behind the curtains of the stage
waiting as the Oil Lamps are lite and wondering when the curtains are
pulled back will there really be anyone out there or has the great
plagues claimed them all. TDK



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Hopefully, it’s the fire to warm us by, while we have a discussion is being sensed, maybe other will join us later too. It’s been several decades since I visited Alfred Watkins work on Ley lines; I understand the leys can be described as Dragon Lines too within druid circles.

The question on Proto Druids, sounds like a matter of definition and interpretation.
If we are saying Druids are a product derived from a society, albeit Neanderthal or Homo sapiens. Both species appear to share the same joy of making musical sounds, whether it may be derived from the discovery of another Nethanderal Mammoth Bone flute. Or Homo sapiens Wooden flutes are also common in many societies today. Does this also mean there are Druids in those societies in the 21st Century?

The oldest credited living society on the earth today is the aboriginal people from Australia. The digedoo is the nearest thing I understand they have to a flute, they also have a society. In which case dose this society have Druids?

I have looked reasonably extensively into the Homo sapiens, Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze and later Iron Age periods both archaeology and where possible historically. It is only when one comes to the classical era, written information becomes available to clarify and in some cases endorse archaeological artifacts, it is only then one finds the Druids. Or in turn its only in the renaissance period the name druids reappear as classical literature is introduced. The hunt to who the druids were commenced, and still continues 500 years later.

What I think we are seeing here is that both Nethanderals and Homo sapiens shared a cognitive interest in understanding their lived in environment; viewed through nature, its different seasonal flow and its climatic changes. It is this similarity in cognitive understanding of viewing and interpretating the same visible earth and sky viewed today, and how its interpretated, which is so fascinating.



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

OK I will
try to sum it up.  Strange I sense pitch forks and firewood being
gathered as I write.

Well if
Romans did not record it, that seems to take care of the CRs.

Some
others are aware of Alfred Watkins use of the term Proto-Druid, but
do not consider Neanderthal early Flint Age as being able to support
a (Celtic iron age like) Druid producing level of a society.

This is
really interesting as they attribute the Great Monolithic sites and
stone works to a people they seem to think were (my interpretation of
their views) almost animals. But seem accept that even in the Iron
age, the Celts did not and could not have done some of them, like
Stonehenge without special Magick or unknown technology.

As I said
most believe there were no Druids in the Neanderthal early Flint Age.
This makes the British Ley Lines or old track ways even more
interesting. How these were done by the Cole-Men, (Some cut miles
long and Laser straight) in the Neanderthal early Flint Age seems
to most, not to be a Druid mystery and they were just used as (LOL)
walk ways for commerce or the Romans really did them.

Then
there is a few Druids that respond to the statement or spirit of it.

“I am
Druid, I am an Architect, I am a Prophet, I am an Adder”

These
Druids to me these seem to accept that they are descendents of the
“Tuatha de Danaan” and perhaps the Fae or other otherKin. This
group of Druids scattered across all paths appear to drink deep from
the “Well of Was” or Akasha records. They seem to be in more
direct contact with their past lives and accept these images and
thoughts as fact.

The
Psychic plays and important part in their paths and they offen accept
a more concrete view of Otherkin and Fae, then just land spirits of
Nature or “genius loci” the spirit of a place.

This
loose group of Druids has no trouble placing Druids in the
Neanderthal early Flint age and even earlier in this world and does
not tie them to only Iron Age Celtic culture.

Please
everyone understand that this has been and is a ongoing very
nonscientific survey and the raw data is just stored in wet-ware.

Moon
Rising TDK



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Hmm, I don't consider myself being a Neo Druid just a Human Being.

What is the response from Celtic Reconstructionts, Reformed Druids, and Tradional Druids. Indeed have they been asked the same question?

It would be interesting to hear your opinion or observation if you are willing to share it.  



druidking
Posts: 229
Joined: 2012-04-19
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

It is interesting to me how few Neo-Druids seem consider the ancient Druids to have been a pre Celtic race. Or deal in any real way with the issues of ancient OtherKin. This view is based on questions ask in groups of Neo-Druids that total into the thousands of members. Of cource only very few ever respond to and given question. TDK



Astrocelt
Posts: 753
Joined: 2007-09-15
Re: How old are the Cole-Man and Proto-Druids really?

Yes its an interesting find, additional information is also available from the science and enviroment page from the BBC.

There has been some interesting information being published recently concerning Neanderthals, which hints towards possible belief in animal totems too. Some links of interest...

www.paleodirect.com/cavebear1.htm

 www.smithsonianmag.com/history.../Fate-of-the-Cave-Bear.html

 http://www.greenwych.ca/divje-b.htm

 http://donsmaps.com/regourdou.html

However, I very much doubt they were Druids per se, as described in the classical sources.